RFC: PoolTogether Growth Plan

Great post with a feasible action plan.

If we did pursue a study phase, I’d just be wary of committing too little value to it, as if we don’t push the GP high enough, the results would probably be inconclusive. In that sense I agree that targeting one network for this particular point is ideal, and I agree with your reasoning for picking Base.

I’m hesitant to apply a concrete veil of rationality to crypto users (lol), but I do think this line of reasoning has value. I could provide some stats to this though, through some of Cabana’s deposits. We only have a bit of recent data, but the last ~1000 deposits on Cabana have had a median size of ~$90. Given that our average GP is ~$3400 and our highest is ~$6700, this would provide a ratio of 38x or 74x respectively.

The numbers above are definitely not a result of a clean experiment though - perhaps our current GPs aren’t large enough to create any impact and this is just the underlying attractiveness of the protocol, or based on your second hypothesis OP token rewards on Optimism could have driven up the median somewhat.

I have a question though. If we do manage to acquire ARB tokens to incentivize the Arbitrum prize pool, as @Brendan mentioned - would this demand a change of strategy for performing these experiments? Or is there some value in, for example, boosting the GP on Base and Arbitrum, but also providing some POOL drip on one of these networks? Or maybe it makes more sense to divert the POOL drip to Ethereum instead?

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Thanks for the thoughts @Ncookie!

100% agree. I’ll clarify that I do think the existing allocations from the PTBR are adequate to conduct a meaningful study phase - IF the GP boost is all on one chain.

Haha… again, completely agree; I think we also both agree that the metric (however squishy) is at least directionally useful. So if going from a $10k to a $100k GP didn’t bring in noticeably more deposits, we might have a serious assumptions problem - and pouring remaining treasury in to make it a $200k GP likely wouldn’t solve that problem.

However, insofar as going from $10k to $100k did bring in more deposits (which I believe it would), we’d have the data to assess how many users the protocol needs at a given GP to be sustainable. That data could tell us (for instance) whether to allocate $200k on more boost, or $200k on a marketing blitz.

This data is great! This is exactly the kind of calculation I’m curious about. As you mentioned, though, this is currently a dirty dataset. Having clean data would enable us to draw more actionable insights.

Just to clarify, I don’t view it as a question of if, but of how and when. ARB tokens will be super valuable for growth. But I think the data from a clean study will be equally as valuable, and it would be best to have that data before applying mixed incentives to any chain. The reason is that mixed incentives make it really hard to know what we’re making better, and what we might be making worse.

For instance, if it is turns out that Fixed Rewards tend to draw degens that dump rewards to lock in yield, we should assume that POOL drips would (likewise) be dumped. So running both Fixed Rewards and POOL Drip at the same time could be giving the most POOL to the least committed participants - and turn into a race to the (liquidity) bottom. This would weaken POOL without a clear indicator of the value returned, and without growing long-term participation. With better data, we can better assess not just how but when to employ the drip.

The ultimate data win (to me) would be to have a clear measure of how POOL drip impacts the “no brainer” ratio. If Base with only GP-boost is ~200x, but Arbitrum with a price-stable POOL drip is ~75x, that’s great news and a powerful insight for decision making. Or, it could show dripping POOL is either always destabilizing or negatively correlated with the ratio, in which case improving liquidity might be a better/safer use of treasury POOL.

But I’m just guessing. If we run the study, we’ll have clean data. And with that data, we can eliminate (at least some) guesswork and execute a plan with the highest likelihood of success :+1:

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I like your calculated approach! I advocated for a single-chain as well, but opted for Optimism instead. Love your objective and results-driven approach, very methodical! It really gives us a strong workable and verifiable foundation. I think Base is the second best option to go all-on on as it’s also another consumer chain, it’s also the only chain without any incentives present now or potential ones planned so we’ll be able to clearly see the pull of a large GP. There’s soooo much more in your post I would love to reply to, but for now I want to say that should we go with Base as the single-chain for now, I would be onboard with that, too.

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I am on board with the plan but I stand by my sentiment that I don’t believe we should start with this much POOL. We need to first build some confidence in the token going forward and I don’t think putting this much POOL out there while POOL is below 50 cents will be very good for the upside of the token. If we can first show POOL holders they can benefit from the system, then the value of POOL can rise and we can ramp up distribution as we grow. I would start with 1/4 of the proposed amount.

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Great conversation so far! People have made a lot of great points on what our strategy should be. I’m going try to consolidate the ideas in an effort to drive the conversation forward and find a direction.

Boost a Single Chain

The rough consensus is to boost the Grand Prizes on a single chain, in order to get the best insight as to whether the approach works. By doing so on a single chain, we will see a grand prize of nearly $50k at the end of the boost period (approximately).

Boost Base or Optimism?

It seems we have rough consensus around Base or Optimism being the single chain to boost. I think we need to nail this down so that we can move forward.

:camera: Snapshot vote on which chain to boost

Distribute POOL to Boosted Chain?

The POOL distribution idea was initially floated to ensure that depositors would earn something while the prizes were being boosted. POOL staking APR during the boost is extremely high.

However, people have floated the idea of not doing any POOL mining on the boosted chain, or doing it elsewhere. We also need to nail down this question.

:camera: Snapshot vote on whether to provide POOL on boosted chain

Strategies for Other Chains

If we choose to GP boost one chain, then we should consider how we grow the other chains. In some cases we already have a strategy in place, or have one in the works.

Below is a review of the current and planned incentives on each chain for context:

Arbitrum

Current growth strategy: none
Future growth strategy: GP boosts (conditional)

Arbitrum currently has high APRs, but the grand prize is not large yet and we are not running any incentive campaigns.

G9 has applied for a $150k ARB grant. It is not yet confirmed, but in the works. The funds would be used for GP boosts.

The grant is disbursed conditionally based on milestones. Our first milestone is to reach $500k TVL on Arbitrum, and it will unlock $50k ARB. @tim can speak to this in more detail.

How do we achieve $500k TVL on Arbitrum?

Optimism

Current growth strategy: OP incentives
Future growth strategy: we have more OP incentives to distribute!

Several contributors are using Optimism grants to provide OP incentives to depositors. The current incentives are going to run for another 4 months, and more incentives are lined up and ready to go.

Base

Base does not currently have any incentives or boost active.

Ethereum

Ethereum does not currently have any incentives or boost active. However, we haven’t launched on Ethereum yet. If we don’t have a growth plan, it may be wise to delay.

Summary

It seems we have some good consensus around boosting a single chain; once we lock it down we’ll know what the other chains are and how we need to grrow.

If you don’t agree with the single chain, please continue to comment! That’s the only way your voice will be heard.

Note: przPOOL can now be used to vote!

:camera: Snapshot vote on which chain to boost

:camera: Snapshot vote on whether to provide POOL on boosted chain

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My rational brain is telling me to boost Base for the compelling reasons outlined by the stellar @nopey.eth, however there’s a case to push our most adopted chain even further.

Base is nice in theory, it’s a Coinbase chain and the consumer chain. Though with Base, we’re pretty much starting from 0. I’m most comfortable with Optimism, despite it being the most “noisy” chain. To me, it’s a chain we can supercharge and send to exit velocity. That’s my gut feeling :3 It’s where we have the most success so why not build on it?

With the upcoming boost in OP inventives, Optimism has a lot going for it. Let’s sweeten the pot and see how high we can take it?

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While a lot of great points have been raised for boosting Base, I believe the strongest strategy is to lean into the deployment that already has the most traction (Optimism). The goal of this boost is to help the protocol reach escape velocity, so we might as well strap it on to the rocket that has travelled the furthest so far. If it works and we see significant traction, I think Base should be the next one to slingshot.

As for the POOL drip discussion, I think 400k drip would make sense if the boost is on Optimism for the following reasons:

  • The GP boost is somewhat inefficient and because of the looping contributions, about 27% of the boost value will be leaked to przPOOL over time. That’s over $50k in additional przPOOL contribution value and some of that should be distributed to new depositors coming in.
  • Optimism currently has over 400k POOL deposited in przPOOL with an average prize APR of about 8.7%. If we assume this GP boost will at least double (hopefully more!) the TVL on Optimism, then 400k new przPOOL deposits would keep the expected long term APR equal or greater to what it is now.
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Agreed that, if we don’t want to delay growth to research impact of specific incentives (I’m a hopeless data nerd), going all-in on the strongest chain - Optimism - is the best option. I’d support this all-in approach with whatever parameters the community affirms :+1:

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I will again state my mind: NO boost, NO incentives from the treasury.

Except for OP incentives and maybe ARB in the future when the chains are giving the tokens! Other partners can pay too.

I think tokens in treasury should rather be kept for future technical / community developments or security “mitigations”. In the case of the remaining POOL, it may also be sent to non-reachable address

I do not understand, you said you would deploy before end of Q3 in another post. Mainnet is still the whale chain for Defi and where most POOL resides ASFAIK. Growth can happen some weeks or months after launch. Why delay and not deploy to see where it leads us?

I mean end of Q2 above [RFC] PTBR 18: PoolTogether <> G9 Software Inc - #15 by sliponit

Launching on Ethereum without a growth plan has a few issues:

  • we’re spending effort on something that may yield little return.
  • infrastructure needs to be run, but there are no incentives
  • the optics of having a “dead” chain with zero TVL aren’t great

We launched the previous chains with ~2 eth in gp boost, but on Ethereum the stakes are much higher. I doubt we’ll get many deposits with a grand prize of 0.3 ether.

This is why I started the growth plan discussion: to put a plan in place for all chains. It’s gone in a different direction, and that’s fine.

If we were as well coordinated as a traditional company, we would be agile and make decisions dynamically according to circumstance and opportunity. There is no sense in spending effort on something with projected low ROI. We’re a very small team.

Internally G9 strives to operate this way; by being opportunistic and prioritizing efforts based on required lift and ROI. However, we have to do this while trying to also meet the deliverables that we promised months before. This is why we’ve had discrepancies in the past.

Ideally, from this conversation we coordinate and focus our efforts on what is best for the protocol.

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We have two new proposals live as a result of these discussions and the latest couple snapshot votes.

PTIP-88: Grand Prize Boosting on Base
PTIP-89: POOL Distribution on Base

:hatching_chick:

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We’ve passed PTIP-88 and boosting will be setup very soon!

As for PTIP-89, it seems voters would have preferred a smaller amount of POOL to be distributed. With this in mind; the amount has been updated and PTIP-90 is now live.

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